Category: the Rant Board
Yesterday on TV I saw proof that the holiday season was truely on us:
Somebody was talking about the "atheists" and how they "use this time of year to spread thier message of hate." Now I thought hey pal, the only one spreading a message of hate is you.
I am so sick of people thinking they have it right and everyone else can go fuck themselves. I don't care what you believe but don't tell me my way is wrong. Enter the holidays, a time where all the nut jobs come out to play!
I know right? very well said.
Maybe someday people will learn to play nicely with others.
Message of hate? Hate of fundie nutjob wackos? Yeah, that exists. Hatred of the culturally accepted deities? Impossible, you can't hate what you don't believe in, can ya?
I need to add more comments. I think, too, that this is a good example of people trying to figure out people they don't understand or who they disagree with and of course, failing miserably. Figure that those folks who have been raised in Christianity all their lives can't get their heads around why a person would be atheist or felt they didn't need faith of some sort. And, let's face it, for people like me who, although I never knew I was agnostic or atheist all my life, I just could never fully grasp religious faith, even when I went to church as a kid. I do not dislike all religious folk because the silent majority tend to be the ones who are level-headed and just want to live and let live. It's the ones who tend to squawk the most who are the extremists and of course get the lion's share of the press and attention, and these extremists are a pretty poor sales pitch for wanting to get involved with faith of any sort. Also, I jokingly tend to believe that the reason why some Christians think atheists live empty and sad lives is because atheists don't have anybody we can officially hate with the backing of supernatural beings to make our hatreds credible. LOL!
I enjoy when people try to knock me being an atheist, especially around the holidays. It gives me the opportunity to bring out the big guns. Like reminding them that christmas is an arbitrary holiday that was made up by the pope. That one is really fun if they think catholics are as bad as atheists are. Then there's the fact that Christmas is set on December 25th because it was already a pagan holiday, that one always gets their blood boiling.
I love educating those people who don't look at their own religion any farther than the church pew. They make it so easy.
We're spreading a message of hate simply because we don't believe, or at least question the faith? Yeah, that's pure logic right there. I laugh at such people. I, for one, am not spreading any message except Happy Holidays, or Merry Christmas. Is that such a crime?
Um, you have to have somebody you can officially hate to live a content life? Strange.. never heard that one before.
I don't personally celebrate Christmas but I don't care if the majority of people in the U S do or how they celebrate. Personally I try to tune out the holiday chatter & rarely watch either mainstream news or conservative coverage. Closer that I lean to conservatism commentary on "trying to stamp out Christmas" or however they put it anymore is a little over the top.
Well, in the public school district, saying "Merry Christmas" warrants you getting pulled over and yelled at by a teacher. Trust me! Don't do it, ever!
Well, it's a sort of satirical thing. Some of these extremists talk so much about how they hate these people or God hates that group of people or whatever and you have to wonder if such people feel they need to hate somebody just to feel content or complete.
Schools have never been the sorts of places to encourage freedom of speech, least not in practice. Save freedom of speech for when you leave school, right? Hahahahahaha!
Wow what a touchy subject. I would have to agree with Cody. I love when people criticize me for being an atheist. It give me a chance to educate. In my opinion, noone's belieffs are wrong. I mean think about it a belieff is something you have faith in. And faith varies from person to person. How can anyone tell another person that their belieffs are wrong, it is what they have faith in, which makes it right to them. And another thing, although i am not religious, I do not knock people for believing what they believe. live and let live is my number one policy.
It seems to me, however, that people feel that if you don't believe in there god you must be evil. Grow up, that's my message.
I've never had someone told me I was evil, but I've had people pity me, like...what a horrible life I must live if I don't believe in a god.
I've never been referred to as evil, but I've heard atheists in general be accused of being evil, having no values, living empty hopeless lives, having some sort of evil world domination agenda, persecuting Christians, and I guess merely admitting you don't believe or disagree is persecution, and even being accused of worshipping Satan or being in league with the Muslim terrorists. I urge atheists and good Christians alike to look at this website to see what some of the wackier elements are saying. The comments to the various quotes are fun to read, too, so do come with your sense of humor revved up and ready to roll.
http://www.fstdt.com
I've been called a devil worshipper before, by my own grandmother no less. i just laughed.
That's such a leap of illogic all you can do is laugh. But I suppose if you've been in this or that church from day one the idea that there are people who worship absolutely nothing probably does not compute. Perhaps the devil thing is just a black-and-white thing, so anyone, anyone at all who is not a Christian or even that particular person's sort of Christian just by default worships the devil. That's still full of WTF, though.
It certainly is!
I personally could never wrap my head around pure atheism, that is, not believing in a deity of any kind. But I certainly don't think all atheists are evil and most don't spread hatred of anyone. They just think differently from the way I do. I've had idiots tell me that I'll go to Hell and have corrected them by saying that, if I'm that bad, I'll go to Tartaros. I've had people, though extremely few, say that they'll pray for me to find Jesus and so on. I love to play the Christian history stuff with them too, since most of them don't even have a clue. But the majority of Christians don't pull that kind of crap and most are very nice. Some are even genuinely curious about my religion and I've had chats with those as well as civil debates with others who had different views from me.
I've occasionally had that. I consider myself more an Agnostic than an Atheist but there's that little group of people who mistakenly believe that Agnostics and Atheists are one and the same. If I'm not mistaken Agnostics don't necessarily believe there's a deity or deities out there but neither do they actually believe there aren't any. Atheists on the other hand are absolutely certain that there are no gods of any kind.
hmmmm. i don't know that they do, but if most christians do consider all who don't believe in their god devil worshipers, that doesn't make any sense. seeing as lucifer was one of god's fallen angels. if u don't believe in good, u cannot possibly know what bad is. does this make sense? if u do not believe in god, how can u worship his counterpart?
That's my point exactly. Christians believe in the devil, they just believe he's the evil one, and Satanists also believe in the Christian God. They just don't believe he's the true God. For those of us who are atheist/agnostic, and somehow question the existence of a God, how can we be worshipping the devil? If we did, we'd be Satanists.
This is going to drive the topic off-topic a bit, but I'm curious what people think. Why would anyone willingly want to worship evil? Do they really think the evil guy is more likely to offer solace or protection or whatever than the good guy? Isn't it kind of like rooting for Voldemort instead of Harry Potter, for example?
I don't think it goes like that for people. I am no psychologist obviously, but i think people maybe worship evil, because they have never experienced any good or aren't accepted by the people that are considered good. i mean how often do u see satanists advertising their belieffs on commercials, knocking on doors and refusing to leave until they thump u over the head with their bible like johava's witnesses do, or other things of the sort? some of the people that claim to be good, are the most evil people you will ever experience.
I don't think the door to door religious people are evil; just incredibly annoying!
Even tho I find door to door Jehova's witnesses a bit annoying, I don't see them as evil and even respect some of what the faith has to teach. I've read 'Watch Tower' publications before and saw more attention to Old Testament verses than some Christian churches I've attended, which I liked because my opinion is these scriptures weren't meant to be discarded.
But I sort of see Kayla Cookie's pov too...one of the worst people I know puts on quite the religious show. This is someone who can't accept ANYONE'S happiness. For example she is the only one who found fault at all, much less consistently, with my daughter even when she was an infant.
Recently I had to have a mammogram looked at a second time, which I was not happy about at all. A hospital radiologist deemed the change insignificant and said to just go back for your yearly's and so monthly self exams. Religious show and tell says, and I am not at all happy Mr Sponge told her at all about this as it has been known for years we are no longer friends, "A cousin of mine in New York got the same finding & instructions that it was insignificant. She is now on chemo." I'm supposed to accept the finding of non medical personnel over that of a radiologist with at least an M D? Of course, this "pious" woman just can't accept that anyone might be happy with a child or healthy themselves, she'd probably love to make me worry about breast cancer. This is why I don't practice a religion even tho I believe in a creator. I have lost my empathy towards religious people. Even tho I enjoy learning from genuinely spiritual people of all faiths, people like Joni Ereackson Tada & Joel Osteen, I have lost empathy for my particular community & just don't practice anymore, much less am I interested in telling others this is the only way. It just isn't.
I hate those door to door people. They really waste your time. And if you manage to close the blinds before they even come into the neighborhood, they ring your doorbeel for five minutes before deciding you're actually not home.
I like to be creative, when I think about it. Opening the door to reveal your naked body, pretending to be Satanist, and showing a bloody steak knife are all examples I've heard about.
I wish I were that creative. I just try and tell them to just give me a website to look at and then conveniently forget the address. LOL!
I ask them if they can give me their contact info, so I can tell them about life as an atheist. that shuts them up real quick.
That's a pretty good one.
I wonder how they'd like being invited to my home for a Hellenic ritual? lol Too bad I still haven't put up my altar.
For those who don't know: If you ask one to leave and they don't they're now trespassing. I know: most people react like 'What? You want me to call the cops on the little JW lady?' Well, from a purely pragmatic standpoint yes. You tell them to leave, and they don't, they are now trespassing / no different than the hoodlum takin' a sh*t in your yard.
Just remember that ...
O yes, they'll usually leave, but they'll be back the next day, at least, many of them are.
I am not rude to the door to door nuts but I am a bit brisk when I let them know I am not interested.
If they persist, asking them to leave is not rude. Explaining that if they don't you will call the cops is just fair. Calling the cops when they persist is just you getting a little of your money's worth: you pay for law enforcement with your tax dollars.
And, to boot, your neighbors may thank you because the nuts will leave the area and move to safer / greener pastures. Path of least resistance and all.
My neighbor sees someone at her door that she doesn't know, and she will open it a crack, yell "Not interested!", and shut the door in the person's face. I do not do that, but I still find them extremely annoying. And I can't imagine cops actually coming and making the people leave, anyway.
I've grown to ahte organized religion with a passion over the years. Not the individual practicianers of a given religion (although there are some I could safely say I detest with a passion), but religion overall, simply because as a whole, one religion refuses to leave followers of a different faith alone to live their own lives as they choose even when they do no harm to others. In short I think religion divides more than it unites. TOo many wars I've heard about were motivated at least in part by religion, simply because one factoon tried to force their views down the throats of others who had their own perfectly good, at least for them (and that's really all that matters), belief systems. But if your beliefs don't conform to the masses you get chewed up. And this is particularly true, although I'm in no way attempting to make a blanket statement here, of some Cristian factions. I do agree that the door-to-door Jahova Witnesses (SP), some of whom I've had to deal with over the years, can be rather annoying when they try to pressure you. I'm polite but I give them no reason to hang around.
I'm just glad rollercoasterfan isn't writing those stupid devotionals. Those were stupid.
No, the cops won't come and make them leave. They'll come and arrest them for trespassing.
Most times you say you're gonna call the cops they leave. I'm usually good enough to explain the situation: a. I tell you to leave, b. if you stay you're trespassing c. I call the cops on trespasser ...
I agree about those devotionals. I thought he'd gotten his wish and been banned but I saw him on a few hours ago. But yeah, most of the time those door-to-door folks will leave at the first mention of the cops, not that I've ever had to resort to that..
Neither have I, but I'll keep that in mind. Luckily, I live in a gated community, so they can't even get into the building, much less anyone's individual apartment.
Now that's convenient.
There is hatred on both sides. There are plenty of Christians who hate especially in the US, but there are also hateful atheists who mock or insult people for believing in God.
The reason for this is that people in both groups are insecure in their beliefs. Extreme Christians feel under attack from atheists. Some atheists are angry with God even though they apparently don't believe there is a god. People on both sides feel that the other side is trying to impose its beliefs on those who don't share its beliefs. Atheists feel threatened by Christianity, even though Christianity is destroying itself. That's how insecure they are.
If people on both sides were secure in their beliefs, they wouldn't be so angry and hateful. But both groups are right to be insecure, for their beliefs are wrong. I don't hate either group, because I am secure in my belief that there is a piece of God in all of us, and if we all awaken God within ourselves, together we can create Heaven on Earth.
If I was angry with God, I wouldn't truly be atheist, would I? I just don't care, either way.
I echo what Jessica said.
I'll add to it that if members of society see me as being hateful for standing up for what I believe in, and consider my criticism of religion such as well, more power to them.
most religious people I've run into see such actions as being hateful, when in fact it's quite the opposite; by expressing our point of view, we're simply trying to get people to think outside the box.
sorry for getting off topic; I just had to say that.
That wasn't off-topic; the point of this board was to rant about things like that.
Yes, and I am not a hateful person. I just go about my business and would like to go without listening to what a person thinks I should think. And Jess, I would love to live behind a gate.
Wait, how can an athest be angry at a being whom they do not believe in? that is not really here nor there. that is like me saying there is a ghost in my house, but i do not believe in ghosts. u know? i have not come across an athest that heckled someone for believing in god, not saying they are not out there, but i have yet to experience one. most live by the same policy as i. live and let live.
Yeah. Exactly.
Well lol, I am probably a bit late on this topic and may not have read all the posts. But heres my take, don't get me wrong life is full of the good and the bad. For instence, I am a non religious individual who knows some of all religions who are both ignorant and narrow minded, or in some cases quite good people. But, I'd agree whith Cody in saying part of the reason why Christianity is staggering in popularity or any religion for that matter is because. it tends to be blaten hippocracy! Of course, I don't intirely blame the masses because in extreme cases people are taught to just simpley not ask questions! And look where that lands them? We get people like the guy you described on Tv that are nothing more than a nucence. There are so many ideas about how which the universe came to ixsist but regardless, they do nothing for there cause. Because, one it all seems to unrealistic for many of the scriptures or books of faith to be set in stone, but alsow they use it as a rope to tigh up any free thought. And because of this look in the mirror standard, and the lack of respect it's no wonder people get angry. Oppinion is oppinion, so another words you have the right to believe what you want or do not want to. But, for any one who over prejects there ideals, this pretty much creates allot of unrest in society. But of course, no one in this category has ever learned to live and let live now that I think of it. Why, look at the crusades?
I was at a training center. this woman who also attended told a group of mormons what appartments the training center's students lived in.
I was missing classes that day because i didn't feel well.
they happened to drop by
They gave the usual message about christ being our savior and so on
asked me if i wanted to hear about the book of mormon
Ok, look i am all for someone believing what they want but still
I said no sirs, my mother and sister are wiccan which they are.
they ran away like they had been hit by lightening. Since then i have been looking into paganism at witchschool.com and am learning things. not sure if this tradition is right for me yet.
I will at least finish out the first degree course
I set myself to do it and so i will finish
slowly but as my mentor said the journey is far more important than the destonation and she is not the only one who told me that.
another friend said well as you learn maybe you will see that this is not the path for you
he may be right but still i want to learn all i can so that i do not take a blind view of my way is the only way i need to keep an open mind
for example no matter what i will still love the christian christmas tunes not because i necessarily believe some baby was born to a virgin but because the message of peace is there.
I still put up a christmas tree and say merry christmas
again i think thats more from how i grew up than what i believe
do i think other pagans will condemn me some might but thats there opinion others will probably try to explain things and others will probably turn away and go on letting me believe and like what i wish.
Its just i cant figure out how to integrate the traditions of my childhood into what i feel is right to believe in.
I'm also atheist, but have no problem, and even participate in the usual Christmas traditions. As long as nobody makes me go to church, I'll be fine. I have lots of moderately religious friends, and they're awesome people. As long as we can agree to disagree on the matter, I won't say anything further.
Yes, I will participate in Christmas, of course, it just doesn't have the same meaning for me as it does for the religious folks. Like Jen said, it's more what I grew up with. I do think it is sad when peopl make others feel like shit because they believe something different.
I participate in the christmas tradition, but I view it more as a celebration of family then anything else. I don't believe it has anything to do with some baby born in the backwoods of the desert 2000 years ago. I think its a time where family gets to gether to celebrate being family, and anything else just overshadows that.
Yes absolutely, not to mention thanks to capitilism Christmas is being observed more and more now as a holiday for presents and the tradition of your family even more than church do to the fact that we all use this time of year to say how much we care and have a nice time.
Jenni I can't readily find the source right now at home but I have one from a Muslim political prisoner in Tanzania. This man compiled sources from Christian missionaries in Australia who befriended him & got him information. He came to the conclusion that the commonly held Christian belief that Jesus was the son of a deity born on December 25 & sacrificed for the salvation of all mankind came from earlier pagan traditions. One cult spoke of a pagan deity whose son was born December 29 & sacrificed for the salvation of the pagan cultists. There are parts of the Christian Bible he traced to the addition by the Gospel Paul, originally Saul. Apparently the early Christian scriptures make no reference to Jesus being son of God or being sacrificed by him. Other sources cite Christmas as being based on a German pagan festival revolving around a tree (the original 'Oh Christmas Tree' is actually "O Tannenbaum"). Let any pagan friends who have issue with your celebration of Christmas know about these sources. I personally don't observe Xmas, but find the lights kind of pretty and leave the decision to observe or not, secular or genuinely believed religious faith, to others.
I too, celebrate Christmas as Giftmas and enjoy the wonderful time spent with my family. An excellent documentary from The History Channel can be found on Youtube and helps trace the true roots of the holiday. It's called Unwrapping Christmas. There's another one called The Real Story of Christmas, which I haven't seen yet but which sounds similar. Also, if you do a Google search for something like Christmas pagan roots, you'll probably find some interesting information. Just make sure the source is genuine and not propagandist or exagerated.
Hmmm, strikes me as more than a little ironic that Christians put down Paganism and yet some or even many aspects of teir version of Christmas come from Pagan faiths of one type or another.
But most Christians don't know that. The open-minded ones might be willing to learn but there are some who won't listen no matter what you tell them, no matter what proof you have. They believe their preechers or their books and that's it. As with most things of this nature, it depends on the person in question and how willing he/she is to accept new ideas.
I'm agnostic and I love Christmas, always have. No, I'm not offended by the Christian aspects of it, but then again I don't see it as a holiday that's solely owned, operated and copyrighted by the Christians. It's so multi-facetted that anyone can celebrate it, enjoy it, and bring their own meaning to it.
I believe it's Paul Johnson's HISTORY OF THE JEWS that talks about the pagan origins of the first...and still the church with the most members...Christian church. Apparently the Roman Catholic Church was a bridge between the monotheism of the Jews & the polytheism of the Roman pagans. The saints, both male & female of the RC church, are similar to the polytheism of the pagans, which included both male & female deities. This may be a rare & hard to find book now (a rabbi special ordered it for me years ago as it was published in the '70's) but it is a fascinating history of the first monotheist peoples.
A Christian colleague of mine in the '90's & I were talking about the Christmas holiday. He observed it as do most people in the Christian world, but he told me "Sponge you won't find Biblical reference to it. The only holiday we are commanded to observe as Christians, and even that has certain conditions that must be met first, is the Communion. Jesus never said 'Celebrate my birthday'." Secular, pagan, Christian, whatever meaning it holds for you guys have a good one.
I know two Budhists, one Muslim, and at least four Jews that celebrate Christmas.
Wow! The last two posts were fascinating! I must look for that book, as I'm interested in the interactions between those practising Religio Romana etc. and the monotheists. I also have a friend who would enjoy it as she's very much interested in this type of thing.
Oh it is interesting. If only it wasn't all based on fear and manipulation.
all religion is based on that, though.
True, though it is interesting to look at.
What do you mean. They celebrate Christmas because they think it's a good holiday, not because they think Jesus might have existed. They're not scared, not manipulated, they do it by choice.
Actually they don't. As kids, they are told, "go to church or else." Or "worship so and so or else."
that's where my problem with religion lies. If you believe in a God because you've come to that conclusion yourself, great. More power to you, but if you believe because so and so told you you had to, or that bad things would happen to you if you didn't, that's where I start to get angry.
Yup and I do not anger easily.
Yes well said mark.